Aristotle, Plato and their Commentators

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Aristotle, Plato and their Commentators

Post by inerratic on Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:48 pm

I believe that some interested parties in the past, have altered Plato and Aristotles works to include that "everyone believed the earth was spherical because as ships sailed away, they would disappear gradually from the hull to the mast". My contention is that when they replaced the flat earth with spherical, they forgot to remove the parts about the Firmament and the dome spheres. One of the domes is specifically called the "Inerratic Sphere". The spheres carry the sun, moon, planets with their related stars, the fixed stars and the sphere of the either. Obviously, the ball earth only works with the heliocentric version, so leaving the firmament and dome spheres in, only works with the flat earth version. Plato and Aristotle are both full of references to the domes and their mechanisms. Any comments?
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Re: Aristotle, Plato and their Commentators

Post by inerratic on Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:53 pm

For those that regard Plato in high esteem, such as myself, you may research page 157 of "Theon of Smyrna, translated by R & D Lawlor. The subtitle is "Mathematics useful for understanding Plato". On the page specified, find "On the myth of Pamphylian", also in Plato's Republic. Plato's Republic, in Vol 1 of "The works of Plato" translated by Thomas Taylor, on Page 525, tells the reader about the firmament and the domes. Plato knew about the flat earth, but some interested party replaced it with the spherical Earth. They forgot to remove the references to Stars on the rotating dome. They do not co-inside with the Heliocentric stars of the rotating spherical Earth. Many interesting things about the mechanism are there, to be found. In most books of Aristotle, Plato and their good commentators (I.E. Proclus), the words, Inerratic Sphere will lead to more information about the Domes.
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Re: Aristotle, Plato and their Commentators

Post by inerratic on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:10 pm

First off, I would like to say that, for my research into Plato and Aristotle, I used the "Thomas Taylor Series" of translations, Published by, "The Prometheus Trust". They are the best, and first, complete, English translations. When I quote, book, chapter or page numbers, they will be from these books, unless otherwise specified, for commonality. If other sources are Quoted, they will be sourced.
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Re: Aristotle, Plato and their Commentators

Post by inerratic on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:30 pm

On page 32, volume 1, book 2 of The Works of Aristotle, Simplicius, says: ..."those who discourse concerning nature, appear also to speak concerning the figure of the sun and moon, and to enquire whether the earth and the world are spherical or not". My belief, in standing with their method of teaching, they want you to make up your own mind about it. As you will see, they gradually lead you, with fact upon fact, to the FE conclusion.
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Re: Aristotle, Plato and their Commentators

Post by inerratic on Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:02 pm

On page 216, Volume 1, commentary & notes, Simplicius says "For the heavens are not indivisible, nor a similar sphere, though they are the most accurate of all natural spheres". In my opinion, the heavens are the multiple domes or spheres that surround the earth. Also the multitude of spheres are of different radius's. In other places we will speak of the multitude of heavenly spheres.
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Re: Aristotle, Plato and their Commentators

Post by Schpankme on Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:27 am

inerratic wrote:
Also the multitude of spheres are of different radius's.
In other places we will speak of the multitude of heavenly spheres.

There are No Spheres
There are No Spaceballs

Space, Spheres, and Spinning Balls were created to promote the Heliocentric Model; an ever expanding Universe of matter in a vacuum devoid of matter.
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Re: Aristotle, Plato and their Commentators

Post by inerratic on Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:44 pm

First, I would like to thank, Schpankme, for the vast number of posts (over 200) in this forum, of which I have greatly enjoyed and learned from. Being a relative newcomer, I can only present my own narrow focus on this Topic of "Aristotle, Plato and their commentators". This said, with reading these classics, while accepting the geocentric, flat earth model, I have become entranced with the amount and volume of information, that may be of interest to many Flat Earth, students. I present the following: Volume 5, pages 242, 243 of Metaphysics, book 12 and page 356 of notes to book 12. "Eudoxus, therefore, places the lation (local motion) of the sun in three spheres, and also that of the moon; of which the first is that of the inerratic stars, the second is through that circle which passes through the middle signs of the Zodiac; ... (The sphere's he speaks of are what he call's "the heaven", and we have been calling the domes.)
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Re: Aristotle, Plato and their Commentators

Post by inerratic on Sat Nov 19, 2016 3:18 pm

continued- P.243 "Since, therefore, with respect to those spheres in which the planets are carried, some are eight, and others are twenty-five; of these, those only ought not to have revolving spheres in which the lowest star is carried. ( note: viz. The moon; for she is the lowest of the planets.) And those, indeed, which revolve the spheres of the two first stars will be six; but those which revolve the spheres of the four posterior stars will be sixteen. The number, therefore, of all the spheres, that is, both of those that carry and those that revolve the stars, will be fifty-five." As difficult as this is to believe, I have left out a lot for limits of time and of space. Those wishing to know more on this subject are encouraged to read the surrounding pages and notes. Obviously, these philosophers, believed the whole collection of Domes/Sphere's, called heaven, enclosed the earth, rotated with compound movements, to give motions to the cosmos. The Earth is fixed in the center of all this. Also, the two first stars, are the moon (closest to us) and the sun.
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Re: Aristotle, Plato and their Commentators

Post by Skywalker on Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:46 pm

Maybe hemispheres is a better word than spheres then?

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Re: Aristotle, Plato and their Commentators

Post by inerratic on Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:04 pm

Thanks for your reply. My sense is that more than half a sphere is required for the motion of the setting stars and planets as they are fixed to their respective spheres. Also the axis held by the firmament seems as though it would require at least one of the spheres to have contact with the rotating axis opposite to the one above us, and around the pole star Polaris. As some people say, the waters surround the heavens and what else would prevent them from intruding? So perhaps you are right in calling some of them, Hemispheres.
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Re: Aristotle, Plato and their Commentators

Post by inerratic on Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:38 pm

In Volume 7, Works of Aristotle, page 224 of notes to "On the Heavens" a poem is quoted from Homers, "Odyssey": "Atlas by strong necessity sustains
                             Heav'n's ever-rolling, wide-extended plains;
                             And the long pillars which on the earth he rears,
                             End in the starry vault and prop the spheres."
Of course, the spheres are the domes of Heaven that carry the stars and planets in their courses.
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Re: Aristotle, Plato and their Commentators

Post by Schpankme on Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:18 am

inerratic wrote:
the spheres are the domes of Heaven that carry the stars and planets in their courses.

There need be no Domes or Planets (balls) when each light source seen, is stacked one above the other.
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Re: Aristotle, Plato and their Commentators

Post by inerratic on Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:26 pm

Not wishing to be confrontational, to such a friend of FE, I agree that you are most welcome to your opinion. If you wish, I invite you to fully explain your position. How do you propose that the several different motions of some of the stars, the planets, the moon and the sun are accomplished?
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Re: Aristotle, Plato and their Commentators

Post by Schpankme on Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:47 pm

inerratic wrote:
Not wishing to be confrontational
How do you propose that the several different motions of some of the stars, the planets, the moon and the sun are accomplished?

You set about telling us how it is that "Aristotle" was not a Freemason, and yet you've been promoting Spheres, Domes, Stars and Planets.

The Sun and Moon look to be self-illuminated discs.

What you call Stars and Planets (wandering Stars) are one and the same, each displaying a color and frequency.

Maybe you could explain "Aristotle" opinion on the differences between Stars and Planets?
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Re: Aristotle, Plato and their Commentators

Post by inerratic on Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:39 am

Please, I do not wish to cause any disharmony with anyone here. If anyone is disturbed, please forgive me.
Excuse me, but I cannot find how, from the above post's how I "set about telling us how it is that "Aristotle" was not a freemason". I did however, think that it was widely known, that Aristotle lived from 384 BCE to 322 BCE and that the oldest document that make's reference to the Mason's is the Regius Poem, printed about 1390 AD. Therefore, I don't possibly see how Aristotle could be a Mason, do you? My purpose here is not to teach you everything about these Classics, but hopefully to generate some interest in these writings, and spurn those that are interested, into doing their own research into this most fascinating subject.
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Re: Aristotle, Plato and their Commentators

Post by Schpankme on Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:52 am

inerratic wrote:
"Aristotle" was not a freemason". I did however, think that it was widely known, that Aristotle lived from 384 BCE to 322 BCE and that the oldest document that make's reference to the Mason's is the Regius Poem, printed about 1390 AD.

"There is much more info on FE in Aristotle and Plato of great interest, that I think would justify it's own Topic."

My apologies, I meant to write the name of "Plato".

But, as you continue your foray into the "classics", please be so kind as to inform us as to "Aristotle" opinion on the differences between Stars and Planets?

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Re: Aristotle, Plato and their Commentators

Post by inerratic on Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:03 am

On page 350, Volume 1, of "The works of Aristotle" in the footnote it reads "These spheres are vivific immaterial light, and therefore can penetrate each other without divulsion and confusion. For they have nothing of the density and downwardness (what they called gravity) of earthly bodies." Also on Page 351, of the same work, "Thus the sphere of the Moon (being that heavenly sphere which carries the Moon) is contained in that of Mercury; that of Mercury in the sphere of Venus; and so of the rest. The sublunary elements also, animals and plants, are contained in all the celestial spheres, though more proximately in the sphere of the moon, as being more allied to it." I was composing this as you posted the above. I must say that Plato was Aristotles Master and that Aristotle joined the school at the age of 17. It will take some time to pull in info on stars and planets, so I ask you to be patient, and allow me to post as I find it.
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Re: Aristotle, Plato and their Commentators

Post by inerratic on Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:47 pm

On page 524, in Volume 1, of The works of Plato, "The Republic", the myth of Pamphylion is told. As you read, it describes a trip thru two openings, one of the Heaven and one of the Earth. In the heaven, the travelers see a pillar of light, mostly resembling the rainbow, ... whose spindle and point were both of adamant...the spindle was driven thru the middle of the eight (spheres).
Another source for the "Myth of Pamphylian" is on Pages 94 and 157, of "Theon of Smyrna" translated by R & D. Lawlor. The subtitle is "Mathematics useful for understanding Plato". It appears to be a text book intended for students who were beginning a study of the works of Plato. Obviously, if the eight domes are part of the Firmament, with the stars connected to one of the domes for their movements, a rotating ball earth for star movements is not needed.
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Re: Aristotle, Plato and their Commentators

Post by inerratic on Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:15 pm

On Page 89,of the above "Theon of Smyrna", which can be found online, we find, chapter XI,  The Stars, and chapter XII, The planets. As you read, the stars that are fixed to each other are carried around by the inerratic sphere, the top, or outermost sphere. Of the planets and their spheres we find that they also have a star that rides on the same sphere with the planet and also has the retrograde motion as the planet. Who ever guessed? I have not yet seen anywhere that the stars or planets are spherical. But I have seen that the respective spheres of the planets have depressions in them to carry the planets.
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Re: Aristotle, Plato and their Commentators

Post by Schpankme on Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:52 pm

inerratic wrote:
Page 89, "Theon of Smyrna"

chapter XI, The Stars
the stars that are fixed to each other are carried around by the inerratic sphere, the top, or outermost sphere.

chapter XII, The Planets
the planets and their spheres we find that they also have a star that rides on the same sphere with the planet and also has the retrograde motion as the planet.

I have not yet seen anywhere that the stars or planets are spherical.
I have seen that the respective spheres of the planets have depressions in them to carry the planets.

This looks to be where your forum name (inerratic) was procured. study

This line as read, has always seemed contradictory to me; for if the Sphere is inerratic the stars are therefore Not carried around:
"the stars that are fixed to each other are carried around by the inerratic sphere, the top, or outermost sphere."
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Re: Aristotle, Plato and their Commentators

Post by inerratic on Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:24 pm

Thank you for your comment. Yes, you are right about my forum name. I see your point, most of Aristotle is confusing until I re-read it many times. Things are also complicated because aristotle and most all philosophers, use code words and phrases, to throw the profane (people that don't do the necessary work to understand) off the track. One such phrase is "as it were" which means it is a blind. Reference to this can be found on page 160 of "The Greek Qabalah", by Kieren Barry. Inerratic to me, means that the motion does not vary, like the planetary spheres. The planetary spheres are erratic because of the retrograde (backwards) motion they produce periodically. Strangely, to me, the sun and moon are called planets, sometimes, i.e. "The seven sacred planets," but do not exibit the retrograde motion.
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Re: Aristotle, Plato and their Commentators

Post by inerratic on Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:45 pm

In the "Works of Aristotle", Volume 7, Page 465, it is written, "For since there are two sections of the habitable part of the earth, one towards that which is the upward pole with us, but the other towards the downward pole, and the south, and each being as it were in the form of a drum; for such is the figure of the earth;"... Is not this a description of our flat earth? Continuing, " the lines drawn from its Center cut this figure, and make two cones, one of which has the tropic for its base, but the other the circle which is always visible, and the vertex of each is in the middle of the earth."  In my opinion, the Center refers to the axis from north to the south pole and middle refers to the face between two stacked coins, so to speak. So far, this has to be one of the most amazing things I have read, pertaining to the flat earth.
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Re: Aristotle, Plato and their Commentators

Post by Skywalker on Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:20 pm

Does Aristotle's death in 322 BCE have anything to do with Skull and Bones' 322 or just a coincidence?

This line sounds like a description of a firmament - an outer most (hemi)sphere/dome which rotates continually at a uniform speed and in a uniform direction. No retrograde motion:

"the stars that are fixed to each other are carried around by the inerratic sphere, the top, or outermost sphere."

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Re: Aristotle, Plato and their Commentators

Post by inerratic on Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:39 pm

Thanks for your question, Skywalker. My opinion, it is just a coincidence, but some people say that Demosthenes whom died in 322 B.C.E. belonged to a fraternal order that may have led to Scull and Bones, which was created in 1832 at Yale. I am no expert, but, some have said that some document from scull and bones dated 1950 were also dated 2272, because 322 was added to 1950 to produce the 2272 date. Also I agree that the top sphere is called the inerratic sphere and is the movement that created the long exposure, star trail pictures we see on the internet and in books. That means that the earth cannot rotate, and is fixed, but the heavens rotate, via the inerratic, starry sphere. Aristotle confirms that the motions have to have a motionless earth in principle.
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Re: Aristotle, Plato and their Commentators

Post by inerratic on Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:15 pm

In "The Commentaries of Proclus on the "Timaeus of Plato", page 150, It reads: ..".he says, that the Pillars of Hercules separated the internal from the external habitable part." and on page 151 it says; ..."that he supposes there are many habitable parts similar to the part which we inhabit." ..."according to Heraclitus, he who passes through a region very difficult of access, will arrive at the Atlantic mountain, the magnitude of which is said to be so great by the Ethiopic historians, that it reaches to the Aether and sends forth a shadow as far as to five thousand stadia." (487.8 miles)
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